I’ve appeared at a lot of writers’ conferences in the past 6 months (Romantic Times, Las Vegas, San Diego, Florida, ) and am set to do a bunch more (Writer’s Digest, Lori Foster’s, Necon, Killercon). I usually end up on an editors’ panel where I try to explain where Ravenous Romance is coming from editorially, and what sets us apart.
I got a phone call today from a major trade publisher, who is buying a number of our titles for reprint. He gushed about how much fun our books were to read, and how he thought he knew what to expect and yet was pleasantly surprised. He also said that the sex in the books was as good as any erotica he’d ever read, and he’s been reading erotica for decades.
Whenever I do one of these panels, I always tell people that I have wanted to start an erotica company for women since I was a teenager coming of age in the 70s. I was completely blown away by Anais Nin and her Delta of Venus and Little Birds (and later read her diaries, twice), as well as Nancy Friday’s various sexual fantasy collections. Erica Jong and Marilyn French didn’t grab me as hard, but I was fascinated by the burgeoning genre of “clit lit.†The Anne Rice Beauty books came out when I was in college, and I was sure feminist erotica would soon rival that of the bad boys of American letters – John Updike, Philip Roth, Henry Miller.
But then there was nothing. Or more of the same male erotica, but nothing more by women, for women. Where was the feminist “smutâ€? I kept on reading the New York Times Book Review, but couldn’t find a thing.
And then, out of left field (or, more accurately, Ohio) emerged Ellora’s Cave. As a reader, I was thrilled to find this empowering online bookstore of erotic stories for women.
I was also looking for the thread that would link this new erotic readership to the not-so-distant literary tradition of erotica, but this new material was more about opening the bedroom door in the romance novels of my teens, which I also endorsed.
At Ravenous, we want to merge these two powerful (and commercial) erotic sensibilities, widening the readership of this female-pleasing (even if they’re M/M stories) entertainment. We are reaching the readers of explicitly erotic romance, as well as the erotica reader, offering a guaranteed Happy Ending (which is what both these forms of fiction demand).
And I firmly believe that if Anais Nin were writing today, she’s be writing for Ravenous and other digital erotic romance publishers, and making a small fortune
No related posts.
I was asking the caboose to stop putting labels on peeps and stop trying to categorize writers in these little boxes you have set out in the “proverbial writing kitchen.â€
Get with the program, or at least the commentary.
Me thinks it is you who needs to get with the program. Name me one instance where people (peeps is so 80’s ya know) were labeled.
This current post is about the romance labels and as someone else said, they exist for a reason.
Some people like smut, more power to them. Me, If I buy a book advertised as a romance, regardless of the sub-genre, and I get smut instead, I’d be pissed.
Man, over-defensive much?
Ps…I do not have a proverbial writing kitchen because I am not a writer.
I do have a reading chair, though.
“My ‘data’ comes in part from the plain and simple fact that aside for the RR authors, most of the commenters HERE seem to disagree with you.”
Hi again, Shiloh,
Just looking over the comments, there’s a fair mix of RR authors, people who are unhappy with RR’s marketing and/or the quality of some of the writing, and others who don’t understand what the fuss is about and/or are open-minded regarding RR’s product.
I would like to point out that not every person who says positive things about RR works for them. There are readers who enjoy the RR books they have read. Unless…damn! I already mentioned the mind-control ray…
I do agree the editing problems need to be addressed and have participated in discussions with authors and editorial staff on how to do this and meet the tight publishing schedule. I’m confident readers will see a continuing improvement.
Inara, to be honest, I can’t really recall if that comment was directed at RR or at Keta. And I’m too lazy to read thru the backlog of comments at this point.
Yes, I imagine RR does have readers that enjoy their books. I don’t believe I said otherwise.
Fair enough (re: huge backlog of comments and not wanting to read through them, especially the way the reply threads run).
I’m a big one for accuracy, especially when the topic has become so contentious, so I should add only the first paragraph of my response was directed to solely to you. Apologies for not clarifying.
Shiloh said:
“I don’t get into name calling, but man, you’re a snot. You’re also a snot who likes to blow her own horn.”
Me neither. Normally I keep quiet and let the train wrecks steer themselves into disaster. But, holy crap, Shiloh, WORD.
Keta, you seem to think all publicity is good publicity. You’re dead wrong. Since you love to know everyone’s credentials, I come from a business, marketing and PR background.
I’m not going to get into a pissing match with you; you know very well you took that author’s words out of context to make it seem as though she was leveling rage at a beloved reader, when in fact, she was venting about someone who took a free copy of her work and put it up for free everywhere. The former makes her sound like a lunatic, the latter, human.
Like I said, I don’t know that author at all, but I had to step in to call shenanigans, I was so disgusted. I come away with the impression that you’re a manipulative person who has a massive chip on your shoulder. Since you love evidence, I’d like to submit the rather public, irrational meltdown you’ve had all over this blog.
Inara, just like I don’t think all of RR’s offerings are poorly edited, I don’t find all of RR’s authors to be obnoxious twits. Kudos on remaining civil.
Shiloh, Jackie, Ann, and everyone else…can we get matching conductor hats?
But Alisha, I always wanted to be a fireman(person/thingie) – and since the train is well and truly wrecked, wouldn’t a fireman(person/thingie)’s hat be more appropriate.
Rofl. Should have been clearer. I was referencing that hate train (caboose, subway, horse…whatever) Ms. Diablo wants to stick everyone who looks at her crosseyed on. It’s a weird fantasy, but different strokes, you know.
Though you’re right. Trainwreck is far more apropo. In which case, you may definitely have a fireperson’s hat. Haha, I spelled it hate first. Gah, I need to get away from here.
“Gah, I need to get away from here.”
Me too. I haven’t even finished my first cup of tea and my blood pressure’s up and my IQ down from reading all the stupid.
Can I say, while I’m chatting, that the opener of ‘Glutton for Pleasure’ ( http://samhainpublishing.com/excerpt/glutton-for-pleasure ) has completely hooked me, a non het romance reader?
That, ladeez and genlemen, is a damn good way to open an erotic romance. Nicely done.
Ahhh … so you consider RR the competition. It all makes sense, now….
This just demonstrates another misunderstanding of the market. Publishing isn’t a zero sum game. If RR books are good enough, they don’t detract from someone else’s writing who is also good enough. The books, authors, and publishers rise and fall on their own merit. It’s when the books, authors, and publishers are mediocre or sub mediocre at best that reputation becomes a larger issue.
No, I consider Ravenous Romance to be a publisher of poorly-edited, poorly-written porn that give epublishing and erotica/erotic romance a bad name.
(Note: Not saying RR has never published ANYTHING that was well-edited, well-written, or not porn. Am saying if what I have is remotely representative of RR’s catalog, that’s what they are primarily a purveyor of.)
Why do I care? Because, as a writer and consumer of romance fiction who is both digitally and traditionally published, I hate it when a new epublisher comes along, claiming it will publish work of exceptional quality (“Anais Nin would be writing for RR,” *coughcough*; Ms. Perkins’ hubris on that score would be enough to make even Donald Trump blush), and then fails to deliver on so many levels. Especially when that failure to deliver comes with such patent disdain for both the authors and consumers of the product (more than one RR author has admitted his/her work received no editorial input whatsoever, and if that isn’t the height of disrespect for both parties in the publishing transaction, I don’t know what is, unless it’s failing to pay–oh wait, RR also apparently doesn’t pay its authors until their royalties exceed a certain threshhold).
So yeah, I care.
Plus, I have to admit, it IS kind of entertaining…
“That, ladeez and genlemen, is a damn good way to open an erotic romance. Nicely done.”
Awww, shucks, Ann.
Now my face is red for a reason other than extreme irritation. Thanks for giving me a reason to smile!
“so you consider RR the competition. It all makes sense, now…”
Yup. RR is going to take all my readers. Oh noes!
I don’t really know, Lisa Lane, who you’re talking to here. I have nothing against RR, as I’ve said again and again. All of my comments were directed toward a particularly abrasive and disrespectful individual, and I would have made those comments no matter who she wrote for.
I have an idea. If you don’t like what RR publishes, don’t buy anything. If you are offended by Ms. Perkins’ post, then don’t read any more of her blogs. If you don’t like the name of the publisher, too bad. Last I checked, we don’t have Thought Police in this country. You don’t think RR pays its authors well enough, then don’t write for them.
In short, if you don’t like RR go play nicely somewhere else.
“I have an idea. If you don’t like what RR publishes, don’t buy anything.”
Check
“If you are offended by Ms. Perkins’ post, then don’t read any more of her blogs.”
How about Ms Perkins’ confines her posts to her own blog and then we won’t have to see them when we look at *this* blog? Which is how I found her post and not, as some seem to think, through any other discussion. It’s on my Google Reader sub list.
“If you don’t like the name of the publisher, too bad.”
Yep – for the publisher.
“Last I checked, we don’t have Thought Police in this country.”
Which country is that, Tommy boy? In Australia, we have the equivalent, locking people up for reading fictional porn about kids (which I will hasten to add since you are so poor at comprehension, I do not approve of) and for reading books by terrorists, not being a terrorist themself.
Oh, you meant America. Land of the Free and Guantanomo Bay and racial profiling at airports, and prosecutions of erotic publishers and book stores. Nope, no thought police there, no sirree bob.
“You don’t think RR pays its authors well enough, then don’t write for them.”
I wouldn’t write for them if they gave away a Rolls Royce with every contract. I have standards.
“In short, if you don’t like RR go play nicely somewhere else.”
Spoken like the true feminist theorist you are – talk to a group of women as if they’re children and dismiss them in a patronising fashion.
Tell me, Tom – what position with RR do you hold? Based on previous examples, I’m guessing it’s in the marketing department.
“Don’t like, don’t read” – the wail of every crappy writer who ever applied fingers to keyboard. The flaw in that is that we have to read something to know if we don’t like it. And now some of us have, and have made our minds up. You have a problem with women having their own opinions, Tommy?
Oh, now that is one line that’s almost guaranteed to bring some people out swinging.
Thomas, I appreciate the level head and your ability state things without coming off completely insulting.
But one thing heard in blogland a lot is… “If you can say something nice…” and it rarely does anything but throw gas on fire.
We’re adults, Thomas. This is a romance oriented site. The people who visit here either read or write (both) romance. When there’s a blog posted, it’s going to get comments.
“coming off completely insulting.”
Because calling me a troll without a scrap of evidence is civil in your book, Shiloh?
Jeez, Ann and here I thought we could get thru something without this.
Didn’t see where he called you a troll, Ann. And frankly, I’m not inclined to read through every post looking for it. I read the one comment I replied to, and that was the comment I replied, darlin. After 100+ comments, I’m not entirely inclined to keep up with all of them or the tangential replies.
If you’re not reading all his comments, then it would be wise not to praise his commenting style. His general tone has been far from civil or reasonable, and much more like in line with what he posted last.
I don’t want to get into it with you here or anywhere else. And don’t call me darlin, sweetie. Let’s leave that patronising bullshit for our little feminist, Tommy.
As I said, I’m not inclined to read through all the comments, so if I lack wisdom…eh, I’m not concerned with it.
We should probably try to get along here. Since we both riding the hate train together. Then there was that ‘you and your troops’ comment.
Well, I’ll just say that “Thomas” has replied to MANY comments here, and he’s definitely been insulting to quite a few of us.
Yeah, Robin, I’m seeing that more and more.
Ann, I’m going to apologize-he’s been very insulting.
here. here, Thomas. Be careful, these peeps are lethal if you stick your neck out.
As in if your child hits one of theirs on the playground, they just might bury him alive.
YIKES!
Good for you for speaking up, Thomas. Oh, how they despise that. They come out in full force, hats on, bats in hand, scathing words fairly drooling off their tongues.
ps: I’d love to hang around. Thanks RTB for hosting this hate-chat. You don’t happen to have any dunce hats to go with those conductor hats, do you?
Please accept my apologies for putting all future messgaes from your blog on “Spam”. I’ll come back again and play nice with Thomas and his friends.
So have it at ENGINEERS! Put those hats on and barrel down the old hate tracks. Your modus operandi seems to work best for you when people aren’t around to defend themselves anyway.
Don’t forget to wave as your speeding by on your journey of scurilous nausea.
Keta
Me, personally, I love how she was done commenting on this yesterday. Am i alone?
RTB didn’t host the hate chat, and if you hadn’t kept poking at things, or if you’d behaved with half the civility of Inara, and it might have been Debra( again, not inclined to look), most of us would have dropped this ages ago.
It’s just you’re an entertaining train wreck to watch.
Yup, she even posted her farewell flounce twice and everything.
(Though to be fair, that may have been the software–yours posted twice as well, Shiloh
)
I’ll have you know I haven’t flounced away yet.
No reason to. This is still very entertaining.
My PC hiccupped or something and the comment went bye-bye, (i thought) so I rewrote and added. Ever wordy, am I.:roll:
Me, personally, I love how she was done commenting on this yesterday. Am i alone?
RTB didn’t host the hate chat-RR’s Lori Perkins submitted the post and it went from there. AGAIN…Lori submitted the post. Anybody, including you, could have stopped at any time. I didn’t see the point because I’m entertained.
If you hadn’t kept poking at things, or if you’d behaved with half the civility of Inara, and it might have been Debra( again, not inclined to look), most of us would have dropped this ages ago.
It’s just you’re an entertaining train wreck to watch.
Once again, word.
Keta, your kid would never hit mine on the playground. You are just too level-headed and calm to have violent kids.
*choking, gurgling sounds*
People, SPEW ALERTS, dammit!!!!!
*wiping off keyboard and monitor–again*
Why should I? Ravenous is trying to position itself as a spokesperson for romance when a) its publishers have no idea what it is and b) have no respect for the readership to discern what it is and c) have no respect for publishing itself to put out a polished product.
Ravenous is an opportunist, trying to trade on the established genre benefits without trying to make the least effort to understand and/or deliver a product within the genre guidelines.
If labels weren’t important, Ravenous wouldn’t try to be positioning itself as a romance publisher.
huh. So that’s where my post went. Sorry for the near-double.
I really hope a year from now (I keep wanting to sing “when this cruel war is over”) it’s possible for all of us to chat together , be it online or at a convention, and, if we disagree on any topic, have nice, amiable conversations over drinks. And if not… I picture Debra and Robin as the erudite scholars in the corner, ignoring the bar brawl…
Where is Holly? Where is Lori? Why are RR authors defending/answering questions about RR business practices and editing policies (or lack thereof)? Isn’t this something owners/management/PR/editors should be doing, and not authors? So Lori had a personal issue? Is she the only one in management at RR who is qualified to address some of these criticisms?
I need a ruling here, please. For those of us playing the home version of the E-Book Publisher Implosion Drinking Game, does ‘Thought Police’ count as Godwin’s? Cause if it does, we can get double shots…
Okay, SandyW, that comment needed a spew alert! *wiping water off monitor*
This entire convo deserves a ‘Get Drunk out of free’ card. It might make more sense if one was sobriety-impaired.
I have an idea. blahblah thought police blahblah
That pertains to comments too, no? Don’t like the comments, don’t read. No though police=we’re free to express our opinions, including disagreements.
Your right. My opinion is that RR is a struggling start-up with potential. Maybe it will find its way and succeed; maybe it will crash and burn.
I have read works published by Ravenous that didn’t impress me. I have also read things that I thought were well done, and I am a harsh critic. I particular enjoyed LUST IN SPACE, but I freely admit that I am biased since my wife wrote the novel.
Somewhere way back at the start of the comment thread, Thomas said:
“Generally romantic relationships, at least in the way you seem you be using the term, is not a defining characteristic of the romantic genre.”
I managed to restrain myself until I read through all the comments, but nobody else has responded to it.
Yes, romantic relationships ARE a defining characteristic of the Romance genre. They are THE defining characteristic. If you don’t have a romantic relationship in a story, then no matter what else is going on, it’s not a Romance. And shouldn’t be labelled as such.
Ah but Suze, unless you can back that (self-evidently obvious) statement up with literary theory and feminist thought, how can Lisa Lane’s husband (that’s Tommy boy) respect you?
but if you can’t back it up, how about asking your husband to come along and fight your opponents for you? God knows, that always works.
Her husband?
Seriously?
And here I held off from suggesting just that, thinking my cynical side was showing.
Ms. Diablo, I never said your work was offered as a freebie. I said that the work that WAS offered for free is not exactly compelling me to purchase anything from RR, due to the typos/editing, and content.
Your behavior here has definitely put you personally on my “never buy” list, and I bet I’m not alone.
Thomas, it’s very sweet of you to ride in on your white horse to defend your wife, but no one criticized HER book.
Not only that, but honestly…
You. Are. Not. Helping. Her.
Bad reviews and discussion like this one are part of life in the publishing industry. I’ve had my share of them in the 18 months or so since my first ebook came out, and if there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that coming out swinging when someone says something less than complimentary about your work or your publisher NEVER, EVER makes things better. Just…never.
The best thing an author can develop in these situations is a thick skin. Same goes for her spouse, friends, and family.
@Ann
What’s interesting is the way you’ve singled me out among all the people criticising RR in very strong terms. Do you have an agenda or something?
Ann, you left the first comment on this thread, in which you compared the RR authors’ work, collectively, to pig manure. From there, about the only place left to go is to 11.
Also, a lot of the longer comments, on both sides of this train wreck, make my eyes glaze over. Yours have the advantage of relative pithiness.
My agenda, such as it is, is that I know one of the authors (as I explained way up-thread) and followed the recent RR blog book tour.
But after your last comment to me, curiousity got the better of me and I went to your blog. You and I are actually pretty much in alignment politically, so if you’re concerned that I’m an agent of…well, any one of a number of people you’ve called out publicly, don’t be.
“you compared the RR authors’ work, collectively, to pig manure”
No, I was making the point that you can label something – eg pig shit – as whatever you want. It still won’t make it anything but pig shit.
I have a very jaundiced view of RR’s works, having read samples, reviews and of course, the extensive postings by Ms Layne and co. I doubt everything they publish is as bad as Ms Layne’s ‘Knight Moves’ for example. But my impression from my collective experiences doesn’t inspire me to seek the diamonds out from the dreck.
After Ms Diablo’s crazed dishonesty, Mr and Mrs Lane’s behaviour, and Lori Perkin’s hubris, I am honestly never going to buy or review any of RR’s products. Life’s too damn short.
“Put all the polish and lipstick you want on RR’s books and you still end up with pig manure.”
Ann, the above statement, regardless of intent, does sound like you’re labeling all of RR’s work as pig shit. Just sayin’…
NO BENNY HILL!
Inara, it would help not to consider RR’s products as pig poo if they didn’t have an obsession with toilets, wee, and burping cocks. I guess I did label all their output as shit.
But after what your fellow authors and their spouses have got up to on this thread, I’m not nearly as sorry about that as I could be. You can blame Ms Diablo and her loathsome conduct for that.
“you compared the RR authors’ work, collectively, to pig manureâ€
No, I was making the point that you can label something – eg pig shit – as whatever you want. It still won’t make it anything but pig shit.
That’s kind of rhetorical hair-splitting, don’t you think?
I agree with you that life’s too short – which is why I generally stay far away from Blog Wars – so why continue to engage in this? I’m not talking about responding to personal attacks, but there’s a difference between choosing not to review something – or choosing to review it, for that matter – and trashing a publisher’s entire output.
Some of what’s been said here (and elsewhere) on both sides is pretty appalling, but the RR people are responding to attacks on their potential livelihood, just as you responded to an attack on yours on your own blog.
Judge the books on their merits, or don’t, if you don’t want to take the time. But declaring that something is garbage without having read the work in question is unfair.
I see. We must read EVERY. SINGLE. WORK Ravenous ever publishes in order to opine as to the general quality of their books.
Got it. kthxbai.
Come on, Jackie, I didn’t say that, and of course I wouldn’t insist on it. But from what I can tell by this thread, you are judging the entire line primarily by one book. Which, um, from what I saw of it was pretty cringe-worthy, to say the least.
Not one. I’ve read (or tried to read) at least a half a dozen RR offerings. Again, I’ve gone with the ones that have been offered as free reads. A couple of those were very short stories, which, while they didn’t suffer from an excess of poor editing, didn’t suffer from an excess either of story or eroticism, either.
Are these samples representative of RR’s catalog? Perhaps not. But if they are not, then I have to wonder why on earth the publisher is offering them up as free reads in an effort to entice me to buy more. If they don’t think these books are good and will make me want to spend my money on more of their products, why choose THOSE works as free reads? I’m just not following the logic.
And if you’re referring to the Jamaica Layne book, _Knight Moves_ as the one cringe-worthy book…well, that isn’t even one of the ones I read.
“RR people are responding to attacks on their potential livelihood”
Would it not be a better way of preserving their livelihood if they asked prominent authors like J. Layne to put a sock in it, to ask Lori Perkins not to call their products smut, to ask their PR guy not to tell people that readers of blogs aren’t their core demographic, and to tell Keta Diablo never to open her mouth again in public?
If RR and the authors can’t take criticism, they’re in the wrong business. So far as I can see, they can dish it out but they squeal like babies when they get their crap handed back to them.
“why continue to engage in this?”
Please don’t tell me what to do with my spare time, Lisa. I was dragged back into this drivel by Keta’s incredible dishonesty. I wouldn’t have commented further if not for that, and if you look back, you will see she and Thomas have been the ones fanning the debate.
“declaring that something is garbage without having read the work in question is unfair.”
I can declare a book garbage if I’ve read excerpts. I can declare a company crap by its conduct and business practices. I can call an author a dishonest bitch when she does something like Keta did. You don’t seem to think she was unfair – at least, you’re spending your time chiding me, not her.
None of what you’re saying inclines me to kindness to any of the individuals involved. Having been treated with extreme unfairness, I don’t much care if they think that’s unfair or not.
Ann, I’m sorry you feel this way, and I do think Keta’s posting what she did was unfair.
To clarify: I’m not telling you want to do with your free time, I am asking you why you’re continuing to engage in something that you’ve already characterized as not being worth your time?
Honestly, I would think you would understand why some of the authors here have reacted the way that they have – they feel personally attacked. By you, among others.
Like you, they are writers, like you, they hope to earn money with their writing, like you, they care very much about what they do, and they’ve been attacked as a group, without even having their works read, in most cases. They were provoked. That doesn’t excuse the behavior, but I think it makes it somewhat understandable. And it’s why I’m addressing you instead of them. You started the attack with your very first post here.
Being a compulsive researcher, I took the time to read some of your posted writing. I think you write well, for what my opinion is worth, which at this point, I imagine is probably not much.
“we’re free to express our opinions, including disagreements.”
Lew, absolutely. It’s just more productive to express them civilly and that’s the thing that disturbs me about some of threads I’ve read. Not all of them, and certainly not all of the people commenting here. But I do agree with Margery (WAY back at the beginning of the thread) that it’s a lot easier for people to misread tone/intention and also lose civility when you add in the ‘faceless’ factor of the Internet.
I don’t think RR will implode nor do I believe they’re any more opportunistic than any other publishing company or business venture. There’s a learning curve involved in any start-up, a time where concerns can be addressed and adjustments made. Unfortunately RR’s learning curve has been under a microscope since they opened, both because of the justifiable skepticism and concerns that arise when a new e-pub or small print publisher comes on the scene, and the now infamous statement that RR would blow existing erotic romance e-pubs out of the water. It’s kind of like the shot heard around the world…
The RR editing/PR team did not ever state they intended to blow their competition out of the water. I can understand why that statement would be inflammatory to people who’ve been in the business for years, but attribute it to the source, not RR as a whole.
As for the romance versus erotica issue, many of RR’s books are romance. Some are in the category of erotica, where the sexual journey is more important than the relationship. Categorizing the books and stories clearly to differentiate between the romance and the more overt erotica is obviously an important point – I can see why readers would be pissed off if they bought something labeled an erotic romance and got Debbie Does Dallas instead. But there are plenty of well-written books and stories at RR that fit the erotic romance description.
I would like to repeat my offer to anyone who has commented on this thread up to this point and who is hesitant to spend money on an RR book, a copy of my book, RIPPING THE BODICE, to read as a risk-free (well, money free) example of one of RR’s erotic romances. If you’d like to take the chance, please contact me at zhadi@aol.com.
Ann…I can handle my writing being called pig manure by association. But if Benny Hill = Smut= all RR works… oooh, them’s fightin’ words…
Benny Hill… *shudder*…
Now signing off to unwelcome visions of chubby, pasty little men chasing pneumatic blondes in sexy nurse uniforms…
Inara, blame Lori P for using a very silly word. Smut is ten year old boys giggling over the word ‘fuck’. I want to read the literary equivalent of Johnny Depp describing how to make love to a woman in ‘Don Juan de Marco.’
I’ve just emailed you to take you up on your dare.
Got your email and sent the book. I prefer to think of it as an offer rather than a dare, though.
If anyone could use the word ’smut’ and make it sexy, it would be Johnny Depp in Don Juan de Marco. Loved that movie…
Inara, I just have to say…you’re a class act, honey. (Do you mind me calling you “honey?” I do it to everyone, lol.) And I hope you won’t take it the wrong way when I say if your behavior in this conversation has been any indication, you’re FAR better than Ravenous Romance.
Jackie, I’ll take the compliment (and yes, you can call me ‘honey’…but not “sweet cheeks!”), but I’ll also add that I’ve enjoyed working with Holly and Lori for a myriad of reasons and will continue to support the company and my fellow authors as best I can.
There were a lot of non-contentious statements from other RR authors on this post; I’m just more persistent in my commentary.
“…but not “sweet cheeks!â€)
er…unless you really mean it.
Inara, I see this time issue from the other direction; that is, why would a brand new company come busting out of the gates trying to speak for a genre to which they are clearly so very new? Confidence is one thing, but IMO there has been an undercurrent of arrogance in RR’s publicity, and I think that’s why you are seeing so many complaints about things like copyediting and levels of eroticism.
The thing is, I’d bet pretty much everything RR thinks is groundbreaking has been done before, either within Romance or erotica. That doesn’t mean RR has nothing of value to offer. It doesn’t mean RR is without talented writers. But when you’ve got free sites like Literotica and established publishers of erotic Romance (from Black Lace to Samhain), RR is entering a market that is not uncrowded. I get that RR is trying to distinguish itself, but why not do that through a focus on the best writing, the best editing, the best prices, and respectful observance of the market(s) and its(their) readership(s)? Why not wait more than a few months (and honestly, this “blow the competition out of the water” stuff started well before one book hit the streets) to try to get to the top of the roster? Why not try to glide gracefully through outstanding work to a position of prominence rather than leaping over, pushing aside, stepping on, or ignoring everyone else on the field?
Hi, Robin,
Apologies for the delay in response – I made myself swear I would do NO thread hopping or blog watching until I a: got some writing done and b: got some work done at work.
I’m also (like several other people who’ve been on this thread – I wonder if there’s a correlation) operating with the remnants of a migraine and am mildly stoned on Zomig.
Some of this is also addressed to Chris below there (waves ‘hi’ to Chris) since both of you addressed the marketing campaign. I’m trying to look at it (and the examples Chris linked to) with the eyes and mindset of someone who a: hadn’t met Lori and Holly (who I immediately liked and I tend to automatically assume people I like have nothing but the best motives); b: was already established in the field and published with other companies and c: wasn’t signed to write for Ravenous (and I don’t mean that in a ‘wasn’t picked or was rejected’ way either) and jumping up and down like a maniac with excitement. I was thrilled to be a part of a new company and happy to be writing for people I liked and who had a strong background in the publishing industry.
Given the above, when I read the press release, it didn’t seem arrogant at all to me. The content talking about what they have above the competitors seemed (and still does) focused on the technical/business side of things (ebooks and audio; frequency of new items, etc.). I also didn’t find anything jarring about the use of erotic and romance in the piece, but it was my understanding from the beginning that they would be releasing erotic romance and erotica, not either of them exclusively.
That being said, I did not have a strong background in the current world of romance or erotica (you can be sure I did my research after my first foray into a thread at Dear Author) and appreciate the fact that readers and authors do make very distinct distinctions, if not all exactly along the same lines. I would definitely push for better definition in the item description on the website to indicate if it’s erotica or erotic romance. I’m still trying to figure out all the nuances myself.
I also realize that even if I don’t completely understand or agree with some of the points here, they still need to be acknowledged, discussed, and not just dismissed or shot down out of hand. And just because something doesn’t bother me doesn’t mean it makes it right for the rest of the world.
I really appreciate both of your comments and hope eventually all of our readers feel they’re getting the quality promised on the press release. I would also love to know what you feel RR could do to address some of the problems you see with product versus advertising (editing is on the check list). I am seriously trying to stay OFF of the ‘net other than my email ’cause it’s eating my writing time and my brain, but I would love to hear from you at zhadi@aol.com if you’re so inclined.
Let’s see if I can stay away.
The RR editing/PR team did not ever state they intended to blow their competition out of the water.
Didn’t they? Okay, I know very well who said that particular phrase, but I remember reading comments very similar from actual RR representatives. I’m too lazy to go seriously hunting for old blog posts and threads, but here’s an example (which I totally snagged from the Absolute Write forums): http://twitter.com/ravenousromance/status/899262096
Also, remember that first press release? http://www.ravenousromance.com/pr02Sep2008.html
Holly basically says the same thing as JL did, just in more professional tones, but the most telling thing? Look at their use of erotica and romance in that piece. Doesn’t appear that they ever really grasped the difference between the two, let alone the nuances.
Maybe it’s just me, but RR representatives have come across as arrogant and patronizing since they came onto the scene. My opinion? You’re a better rep for them than anyone they ever paid to be.
From Ms. Perkins statement:
“…widening the readership of this female-pleasing (even if they’re M/M stories) entertainment.”
Sorry, but after reading the Amos n’ Andy type dialogue by one Jamaica Laine in her “Knight Moves,” and for RR to let this stereotypical and offensive material actually go public (and proudly proclaim its now an RR “best seller”) it sounds more like they’re ready to alienate readers of color than widen readership. Had this book been edited properly, or if the company even had individuals who realize it’s now 2009 and not 1949, then Ms. Laine’s corny attempt at humor from “gangbangers” in Philly (why oh why did she pick Philly I wonder?) would have been caught and dealt with appropriately. Either the company doesn’t care or they’re blind to how offensive Ms. Laine’s ebonic dialogue is, in that oh so crucial scene of this riveting (as in I cringed several times with this book) time traveling romance.
I guess this book is part of the “smut” Ms. Perkins is eagerly crowing about. And I heartily agree.
I wasn’t going to respond to anything else here … but I need to ask: how many Lisas are posting, here? Two? Three? I’m honestly losing track.
And I told Tommy not to post here; he got a bug up his ass after reading over my shoulder….
I have no idea, but I’m the Simpsonized one.
@Jackie: And if you’re referring to the Jamaica Layne book, _Knight Moves_ as the one cringe-worthy book…well, that isn’t even one of the ones I read.
Er, there may very well be more than one book that is cringe-worthy; what I said was that a lot of this vitriol seems to have been prompted by one particularly cringe-worthy book.
Oh, hell, I write quirky, sorta literary suspense; this is all pretty much out of my wheel-house, and I second whoever it was who said she was getting a migraine. Me too.
Okay, really must sign off now. If you haven’t yet watched this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_CSrsALUek
please do.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread (back around comment #30 something?!), it puts this all into perspective for me. Good night, all, and happy writing!
I hate when I have to do this, but I have to eat my words. Let me get this part over with…
egads. I was fricking wrong.
Thomas, the one comment of yours that I replied to earlier-I take it back. After going back thru and reading your comments, I don’t have much choice.
You might have been a bit level-headed in the comment that caught my eye, but most of the comments from you here have been insulting, snide, condescending, rude, or all of the above.
Ann, I apologize. I admit, I’m lazy and I didn’t read thru all of the comments earlier, nor did I want to try to navigate the very odd threading, but you’re dead on.
He’s been very insulting, to a number of people, and definitely to you.
Again, I apologize to you, and to the others who felt the insults in many of his comments.
Back to Thomas…man, you really are NOT doing your wife any favors. If she has a desire write professionally, she’s got to learn to how to handle the business aspects of her career on her own.
If my husband had done something like that, he and I would be having hard words.
I don’t see it happening, though. He’s aware of the fact that I can handle myself, and I can handle my career. It’s possible your wife would appreciate the same faith.
To be scrupulously fair, I need to record that Inara Lavey’s Ripping the Bodice, which she sent me today, is very much not pig manure, and while the line editing is weak, it’s no weaker than say, Loose ID’s or some other epublishers. In fact it’s a highly enjoyable, reasonably written true romance. I’ll be reviewing it in a few days once I’ve had a chance to digest my thoughts.
It’s unfortunate that the chances of it selling to its merits have been diminished by the outrageous behaviour of those apparently setting themselves up as RR’s defence. I think this is the kind of novel which could and should be sold to a mainstream press, and I wish Inara luck with it – which, if I’m honest, is a lot more than I wish Ravenous Romance as a company.
I am an official Inara fan – that’s why I showed up here in the first place, and a big part of why I was objecting to the broad brush characterization of RR authors – and I’m very glad to hear you say that. I’m enjoying C. Margery’s stuff too (as noted wayyyyy up-thread).
Look, most of us here are writers. Me too (agented, book being shopped, no joy yet). It’s a tough freakin’ business, with constant rejection, a lot of the time for seemingly random reasons (“This is a highly subjective business, and I wish you the best!”) – and it’s being rejected for things that are often deep expressions of ourselves, things we agonize about putting out there for everyone to see and judge. It’s hard.
I’d like to hold up a white flag and ask for a little more kindness all around. I’m glad to do my part in this effort. We really are all in this together.
If you’re a writer, then you know the golden rule is showing, not telling.
The problem right from when Ms Layne burst onto the scene and told us in no uncertain terms that RR was going to annihilate the opposition and show us bitches how it was done, is that it’s all been telling. Telling us how innovative they are, how special they are – how talented they are. Even here. With the added fillip of saying that if we ask to be shown, then obviously RR products aren’t aimed at us, as if being discerning and critical is somehow a bad thing.
Inara is the only one to pony up and *show* how talented she is. But you know what? Entertaining though her novel was, I could see nothing in it that would be described as unusual (in content), groundbreaking – or particularly feminist (in fact my biggest beef with the book is how anti-feminist a lot of the plot was). There was nothing there that Samhain doesn’t already publish, or Loose ID or any of the other epubs with which I’m familiar. The only reason it would probably not make it at Ellora’s Cave and the like is that the sex, what there was of it, was pretty mainstream.
So whatever Perkins and co are doing, the unusual stuff they’re publishing is not good, and the good stuff they’re publishing, is not unusual.
Therefore, since the product when it is remotely tempting, can be obtained elsewhere, the reader has to ask themselves, why RR? The author has to ask herself, why RR? And to date, the answers to those questions just aren’t compelling. There is no obvious reason for a reader to give their money to RR, especially when the products are expensive compared to other publishers. There is no obvious reason for Inara to write for RR when she could submit exactly the same thing to Samhain for an advance and royalties which aren’t paid net, and which are not required to pass $100 before they will be paid to her. There is no obvious reason why we should cut RR a break when every time any of their people speak in public, they show such disdain for their fellow publishers, authors and the genre.
“We really are all in this together.”
Not me, kiddo. There’s a reason I’m now self-pubbed. A few minutes on Google will explain it. I’m looking at this as the outsider with nothing whatsoever to lose. I’m all for kindness (believe it or not) but seems to me you’re only asking for it from one side of the argument, when it’s pretty damn obvious the other side needs to shut up and apologise.
I’m disappointed in you, Lisa. You claim you had no agenda, and now you admit you turned up to defend an author who, actually, didn’t need it. Like Thomas, we had to sit through an awful lot of smoke before you reveled your real purpose. Doesn’t make you a fair witness in my book.
Ann, first of all, thank you for the fair read of my book and your complimentary feedback here. I never thought of it as anti-feminist, so I’ll be interested in hearing more about that. I wasn’t aiming for either feminist or anti-feminist, though. Just entertaining and I’m glad it succeeded on that level.
Second (and this is another ‘to be fair’ moment), Lisa’s support was not directed specifically towards me. She mentioned earlier in the thread as a disclaimer that she was familiar with my work, so she wasn’t trying to hide that and she pretty much says what she thinks.
Mrs. Giggles, if RR is run by the devil and I’ve got a multi-book contract, does this mean I’ve sold my soul multiple times?
I like the idea of a tea break, but I’d rather have a mocha…
Ann, the second comment I made on this thread (or maybe the third) “revealed all.” I’m sorry that you missed it (it’s on the first page). To restate, someone asked me which RR authors I would recommend. I said, Inara, who I know in RL (and who is also in a writing group with me), and C. Margery Kempe, who I got to know while following the RR tour. So, not so hidden an agenda.
As to us not being in this together…well, I think that when you choose to go the self-pub route, you are the person who is selling your books. You want people to read them, you want to make money off them. Ask yourself if this is an effective way to promote your product. I think you’re a good writer (and I mean that), but how likely am I to buy your books? Probably you don’t care much about my business, and that’s your right too.
Regarding apologies, I’ve said what I thought about both sides’ conduct here. But I don’t understand why you are somehow the only person who is owed an apology when you literally kicked this off by putting up the first hostile post.
People react in stupid, thoughtless ways when they’re attacked. It doesn’t excuse the behavior, but it does explain it somewhat.
Lisa, I vowed never to be held hostage by the ‘I’ll never buy your books again’ crew, and you’ve pulled that bullshit line out twice. I have no respect for people who do that to someone who offers honest criticism. Buy, don’t buy, I honestly do not give a damn.
“But I don’t understand why you are somehow the only person who is owed an apology when you literally kicked this off by putting up the first hostile post.”
I never said I was the only one or asked for it on my behalf. I think the RR crew owe everyone here an apology for the way they have treated them with such utter lack of respect. Me, I don’t care about. It’s self-evident that there’s no tactic too low for this lot to use against anyone who is too strong in their criticism, and the fact I was first is a red herring. Others said what I said, and just as emphatically. I can’t help it if time zones meant I was at the head of the queue (it often works like that.)
I have nothing more to say to you, and I want nothing more from you. Your personal sniping under the guise of concerned bystander has done nothing but harm to your friend’s reputation in my eyes.
Ann, I never said “I will never buy your books again.” Ever. For one thing, I’ve never bought one. I’d never read any of your writing before last night. Yeah, I asked you to consider how likely I am to buy your books and support you as a writer, but that’s a fair question, under the circumstances, and it doesn’t just pertain to my individual behavior but to whole bunch of people with whom you interact.
It’s a statement of fact that if you are marketing yourself, how you conduct yourself has an impact on your success, that is, if you are interested in selling more books than fewer. If you’re not, then fine, flame on!
And yeah, that marketing rule applies to RR as well. I won’t apply it to an entire company, but there are some RR writers whose behavior has made it much less likely that I’ll ever buy their books, and others who I want to support because I like them, and because they’ll likely support me back.
Though I’m tempted to buy one of your books now, just to be perverse.
Lisa, I agree with you that authors are all in the same boat, but I always wonder why it’s authors who end up fighting these things out? That seems ironic and sad to me.
Debra, I think, indicated that Lori Perkins had a personal thing over the weekend that prevented her from responding to this, er, her, column, but here it is Tuesday and we’ve seen no sign of her. And I know that it’s her authors who would be first in line to defend her absence, even though from my perspective, as a reader, she should be first here defending her own words and relieving her authors of that burden.
Of course, I have long believed that authors are merely the raw labor off which publishers profit, and that despite the fact that authors are independent contractors, there seems to be a built-in insecurity for authors, especially those who are in the early stages of building a career – a sense that it’s their job to support the publisher, for, I guess, their own authorial interests. Ultimately, though, what loyalty do publishers have to authors?
Yes, I know there will be those who believe that RR or any publisher is personally loyal to them, but even that goes against the spirit of the contractual relationship between author and publisher (that it’s a mutually beneficial business arrangement in which each party has something of value to contribute and earn). Of course that’s for each author to determine for him/herself, but as a reader who has observed quite a few of these battle royales, I’m always struck by how it’s the authors who come across as having the biggest stake in a publisher’s success, as if the author’s career is staked on that. And yet in so many of the cases where we’ve seen epubs go bust, the authors end up with the stubbiest end of the stick — that is, if they end up with anything other than hurt feelings and unfulfilled contract terms. It all just seems so backward to me.
Robin, as with many of your comments here, I agree. Publishers are trying to get as much out of writers for as little as they can. It’s the way of the world, and a really good argument for the continued viability of agents, who really can and should be authors’ advocates.
Lisa, God knows Ann can defend herself, but I do have to wonder how many would come back into this thread, with all of its dynamics, to say they had just read a RR book that they felt was of good quality. I believe it’s far fewer than all who might claim they would. And I don’t think that kind of honesty is an easy thing in this thread environment.
And I appreciated Ann’s honesty and willingness to de-pig-manure me very much!
Robin, I agree with what you said about Ann’s honesty, and I complimented her for that…which, er, got me into trouble again.
I just honestly don’t understand what all the vitriol towards RR is about. Really. It’s so far over the top that it defies rational explanation.
And by the way, that is the real Mrs. Giggles below. Check her blog.
And by the way, that is the real Mrs. Giggles below.
Yeah, I knew that.
Robin…ooptie!
I think most of the world’s problems could be solved with more emoticons…at least for those as emotionally dense as myself.
Okay, time to go out into the lovely real world, where the sun is shining, the birds are singing, and I can get my hair cut…
It’s okay, Lisa; I didn’t expect everyone to know that my comment was itself commentary.
I usually try to restrain my inner smart aleck while online, but sometimes she sneaks out anyway. Doesn’t like to be penned in, that one.
Come on, Justice League Against RR people (you know who you are), maybe it’s time to call for a time out. When we have people pretty much begging for some peace and kindness in this thread, maybe it’s time to call it a day.
I think we all get the message by now that RR is run by the devil and Jamaica Layne is the harbinger of the apocalypse, and that the end of romance as we know it is nigh unless RR is stopped. Maybe we should all call for a tea break? I will see whether I can negotiate with my contacts for a cheaper deal for the oil and torches we will need to burn RR’s office to the ground.
Whoever’s using Mrs. Giggles’s name here, it isn’t funny.
It’s her.
http://kg184613.bravejournal.com/
I’d like to follow dear Inara’s example and offer a pdf of The Toast Bitches to anyone on this thread who cares to read it. I know some of you followed Jane’s take on it (RR Theatre), but hopefully you’ll see a different perspective.
I hope any feedback will be based on the writing, not on what the book is supposed to represent with respect to the publisher. I hope it won’t be categorized as pig shit, although cat shit is mentioned in the book.
Best,
Chumplet
Oh, and Ann, thank you for the PDF! Much appreciated!
“I have nothing more to say to you, and I want nothing more from you. Your personal sniping under the guise of concerned bystander has done nothing but harm to your friend’s reputation in my eyes.”
Ann, I’m truly sorry you feel that way, but I’m not responsible for anything other than my own behavior on this or any other blog and that is what my reputation should reflect, not the interaction between you and Lisa. As much as it pains my Inara-centric ego, this isn’t about me.
I really appreciate the time you took to read my book, both the positive and the frank comments you made about it, and the fact that we’ve had very civil discourse throughout a sometimes contentious thread.
I don’t ride trains.
If you call your book(s) smut, they are likely to be perceived as such. If that’s your goal, congratulations.
If, however, you wish to reach a wider audience and try to brand what you’ve labeled smut as Romance in order to do so, you will offend and anger many–writers and readers.
Smut is a word used to offend, insult or at least garner attention. Go right ahead and use it to describe the books published by RR if that’s your choice.
But if you use it, publish it, then call it Romance, you’re in for a hell of a backlash. As is evidenced by this thread.
I am not impressed with RR’s method for promoting, and at this point have no intention or desire to buy their books. But at least they’re not profiling readers, authors and countries. I was wondering how long it’d take AS to twist the conversation into an excuse to do just that:
“Oh, you meant America. Land of the Free and Guantanomo Bay and racial profiling at airports, and prosecutions of erotic publishers and book stores.”
Peter W,
Then I take it you haven’t read Jamaica Laine or Layne’s (frankly I really don’t care how she spells it) ebonic dialogue for the Philly gangbangers in “Knight Moves”
God knows I’m one to cry out for diversity in publishing, but I’d rather RR and this author leave it to the professionals if lines like ”
“He don’t sound like he from no Philly neither” are what they believe passes for
minority intellect and slang.
I’d call that section in her cringe worthy novel profiling at its most tasteless level.
No, I haven’t, for as I’ve not read any of those books.
All I know is that there are some of us whose families were welcomed into the US when our own country had turned into a murderous regime. And those of us who lost other family members when the twin towers went down. And we truly love this nation -as imperfect as it may be- and are grateful to have a second chance to enjoy the freedoms we would not have had otherwise. I rarely comment anywhere but I was compelled to this time.
Thank you.
Peter, I’m sorry my words caused you offence. I was addressing Thomas’ ill judged ‘in this country’ remark which assumed – wrongly – that the readers of this blog are all American, and the idea that we don’t have thought police, which we do de facto, if not by name. You notice I was just as scathing about my own country, which I love as much as you do America, as the USA.
I meant no aspersions on the patriotism of Americans, and I am not anti-America. But I am anti many disturbing developments in the USA, Australia, Great Britain and so on which seek to punish people for crimes they may or may not commit in *future*, based on what they are reading or talking about.
This is not the time or place for a debate on these issues, so please forgive me for not responding to you further. I did want to offer my apology for the offence, however unintentional.
No problem Peter,
And my thanks to you too, as you should speak up, because that’s one of the wonderful things about America.
That’s why when I get a book that labels itself Romance/Erotic, and I’m going along reading and thinking, well, the writing and plot could be better but then I come across a section that really has no humor except to show what the author believes a segment of the population of Philly sounds like, or would sound like to her since she believes she’s “down†I have to wonder how her publisher let this get past editing, especially if the goal all about – I’m quoting from the blog author’s post here “widening the readership.†Not by letting material like that slip through, imho.
Ok – i’m not going to get embroiled in the comments because it’s all got so far away from the original post.
Firstly, what I see – and what I’ve read doesn’t set RR apart. It’s just another publisher. What annoys me is the hubris that these publisher have: ManLoveRomance says “gay erotic fiction at its best” – Amber Quill says “The Gold Standard in Publishing” and RR says they are going to blow the competiton away.
But of course none of them are any of the sort – and don’t do what they claim. They aren’t best, or the gold standard and they don’t blow people away.
I don’t have the first clue what feminist smut is, but despite that, having wanked off to it as a kid, I know that Miller didn’t write it.
There are plenty of books of erotica “by women, for women” – and I’m not just talking about m/m. I think that before stating this sort of thing, one should check the facts. As has been said many times, Black Lace has been insisting on female authors for female readers for many many years, and boy are they smutty.
I don’t have a problem with the term smut, why should I? What’s wrong with it? If I can admit that I wank, why shouldn’t I revel in the fact that I love smut, innuendo, flirting and god knows what. I claim my own sexuality, and I banish Benny Hill, for if he’d seen me grasping my rabbit, he’d have fainted.
I have not read any RR books. All I have been exposed to are the eviscerations on DA so I have a biased view of the house. When they do m/m I shall buy and comment further, but one has to say that it doesn’t help that there are such errors – and such frankly horrible prose in some of the books that have been reviewed.
Erastes, EM Lynley is, IMHO (heee!!! I’ve wanted to use that so badly…), an extremely good M/M author. I had never read any until a short story she sent me and then Sex, Lies and Wedding Bells, and while the M/M stuff doesn’t turn me on (I need to be able to put myself in a character’s place, I guess), I really enjoyed the story and the characters and the sex was pretty hot. It’s definitely a romance, btw.
Damn it, I said I wasn’t coming back here… Okay, back to writing!
Erastes…as someone who has read a few of RR’s m/m books, a great deal of the DA quotes in reviews were taken out of context. Jane, Jennifer, from Des Moine, Iowa, from DA (or whatever her real names is) is an attorney who knows how to use her training well. And if you took the best erotic romance, and pulled quotes from the book out of context, you’d certainly get a laugh. And that’s exactly what she’s been doing with the book reviews from ravenous romance. Why? Because it doesn’t fit her personal agenda. And that’s sad. I’ve read some RR reviews from european reviewers that were excellent.
And, as a longtime reader of m/m erotic romance and erotica, from gay/lesbian publishers, there isn’t a book or anthology they’ve published that Miss DA couldn’t review and pull quotes from out of context. The only difference is that if it happened with Alyson Books or Cleis Press the gay community would go after her with a vengence. RR is a small upstart and it doesn’t have the backing or the power to do that.
Jane or Jennifer from DA is a very dangerous woman, for all writers, and she should be taken very seriously. Book reviews should be handled with the utmost care, and not be part of vicious, mean-girl, personal attacks.
The nature of her reviews aren’t based on sound facts. They are based on the clever antics of a professional lawyer who knows how to manipulate in order to get her personal point across. Watch out for her, she’s clearly trouble.
Neenut, I don’t care for Jane at DA any more than you but your accusations of homophobia and bias are so far off the mark, they’re ridiculous.
The gay community – for whom I very much doubt you speak – would have more damn collective brains than to give a flying wotsit what a reviewer does or does not think of a particular book from a particular publisher because guess what? Publishers – real, grown up publishers – actually understand that (a) reviews are opinions, not legal judgements and (b) good, bad or indifferent, they’re helpful in raising a books profile.
You’re a troll. You trolled at DA and got nowhere, so you think you can try the same BS here. Unfortunately, you’re talking to the same kind of clever, educated people here that you were at DA and your shit won’t fly here either.
Neenet, I don’t read m/m. It just doesn’t appeal to me, anymore than westerns or non-fiction.
However, appealing or not, I can honestly say if a heroine/hero/whatever was describing a lover or potential lover’s penis low a roll of brawny paper towels, I’d think…ewwww…yuck. And I’d drop the book. The context doesn’t matter.
Another book had an a woman viewing a man’s penis while he urinated and described the act of his shaking the pee off as ‘dazzling’.
It doesn’t matter what context you put things in-if I’d read those sort of things in a book I’d purchased, then the author would fall off my buy list.
Jane’s post was an opinion piece about why RR doesn’t appeal to HER. It wasn’t aimed at m/m. It was aimed at RR-just as the blog post’s title implied.
It was aimed at what Jane perceived as unprofessional behavior on the part of many affiliated with RR.
It was aimed as certain specific comments made when RR was just opening/getting ready/whatever and comments where made by certain RR individuals about how they were going to blow the competition out of the water.
It was aimed at what Jane perceives as poor quality writing-and frankly, I agree. The site of a guy’s penis as a roll of brawny? burping it?
I’m sure there are talented authors at RR. If Inara pubs elsewhere, I’d be more than happy to take a look and if the book appealed, I’d buy. I very much like how she handled herself.
As to fearing Jane, or any reviewer, but the day I fear a reviewer and feel O need to tread carefully for fear my career will implode, is the day I stop writing for good.
I write because I’m good at it and because I enjoy it and because it’s a marketable talent. If those things change, I’ll go back to the day job.
Reviews are NOTHING for an author to fear because they are just a fact of life for an author and how the author reacts to them can do a lot more harm than the review, not matter how harsh/ugly/nasty/unfair.
The best advise I ever got when I got started was how to reply to reviews: Thanks for reading my book
If it was a bad review thanks for reading my book and taking the time to review it-I’m sorry it didn’t appeal. Perhaps the next one will work better
Reviews are NOTHING for an author to fear because they come with the territory. Not expecting bad reviews is incredibly naive because never getting a bad review means you’ve pleased everybody and that’s impossible.
Reviews are NOTHING for an author to fear because what one reviewer hated about a book, another reviewer will love.
Reviews are NOTHING for an author to fear and implying that Jane is going to bitchslap and destroy the career of a wayward author is just plain ludicrous.
Do authors end up looking the fool on her blog? Well, sure. When they act the fool. But they do that on their own-they decide whether or not to comment and if they comment in a less than professional way, then they have to deal with the fall out.
I’m sorry, people shoud fear Jane because… she’s a lawyer????
Dear lord, how dare she! /sarcasm
Like Shiloh says, it doesn’t matter if they were taken out of context. Some of the phrases DA cited from the RR books were so over the top, they deserved to be mocked. If Nora Roberts, for example ever used phrases like that, she too would be mocked. Thank the dogs she doesn’t write like that.
Jane, or anyone else is free to review the books the way she wants. You are free to find a reviewer who meshes more with your tastes. That she is a lawyer has shit all to do with her reviews, except the posts on legal matters. DA and Mrs. Giggles mean girls? That’s to laugh.
Is it just me, or is calling her Jane/Jennifer rude? Neenut, how would you feel if I discovered your real name and called you Neenut/Maria Burke, housewife wannabe writer from Bumfuck, Nebraska or whateverthehellyournameisorwhereverthehell youlive?
The only reason you did that was because you really really wanted to stick it to DA. How juvenile.
Please see my guest blog at You Gotta Read, in which I discuss the meshing of “smut” with time-honored literary tradition:
http://yougottareadguest.blogspot.com
Why can’t we allow our mutual love of the written word to bring us together? Can’t we all work together to ensure the reputations of romance and erotica only improve? All of this fighting is getting everyone nowhere.
I don’t see how your astroturfing has anything to do with this discussion – it’s just a way of getting people to look at promo for your book.
“Why can’t we allow our mutual love of the written word to bring us together?”
Oh yes, and let’s not think about irrelevancies like lousy writing, patronising and offensive promotion, and authors who reduce the art of Romance writing down to stroke fic.
I’m sure it would be so much *nicer* for you RR ‘peeps’ if we’d all stop talking about RR…oh wait. That’s the last thing you want. Only you want us to talk about it the way you want. That isn’t going to happen.
Love of the written word != love of RR and its output. Surely you’re not dumb enough to believe we’ll swallow that nonsense.
I invite your critique, on both my blog post and my work, but please do be specific.
Peace.
Ah, Jane/JenniferL dangerous?? Now that is laughable.
The best thing about this is that it has made Mrs. Giggles stop blogging. She has been the queen mean girl of blogsphere, and how she stops blogging because others are mean?
Talk about two faced.
She hasn’t really stopped blogging, of course. Since she made her hypocritical posts about this whole thing she has posted twice more.
Typical.
But as evidenced by your post, you just love to read her, don’t you?
Mrs G the queen of mean??
I read her blog and find her intelligent, funny, snarky and real. Time to put your big girl panties on if you think she is abusive or mean. In the real world ‘mean’ is damaging – abuse, rape, taking advantaged of the powerless.
on topic: I read a RR book and it was average, not too bad but not too memorable. But, they aren’t doing anything new, I was reading black lace in the 90’s. ‘Feminist smut’ is an interesting term, but, for me feminism is about empowering and reading smut is not new or empowering in 2009.