A while back I was cruising a popular writer’s board and saw a post asking people to vote on whether they understood the American pop culture reference the author wanted to use. I don’t remember the poll results, but I do recall that while some people got it (I was one, as it happened I used to watch the TV show referenced), not only did most of the people not living in the US not get it, but there were people who lived in the US who didn’t understand the reference.
In the thread, I made the comment that my feelings on pop culture references were that they can detract from a reader’s experience; either by pulling the reader out of the story as they try to understand the meaning, or by cheating them of a visual they can’t get, because they have no knowledge of the reference.
Of course, anytime a book crosses cultures—even within a country—there are references that may be lost on the reader. But as a reader, I don’t want to read a book from Australia and be left wondering what the author means when s/he has compared a character in a book to a character in a TV show I haven’t seen. I want to be able to enjoy the richness of the visuals as fully as I can; picture the character’s actions, see the characters in my mind, get a sense of the music that’s playing, the emotions of the scene, the scents there. And with the rise in popularity of ebooks, more and more international readers have access to books from different countries, leaving authors, editors and publishers the need to be even more aware that their books may be read by international readers upon release—not just if foreign rights are sold.
I also think pop culture references can date a book, making it less timeless, less apt to appeal to later generations of readers. And really, what author wouldn’t like to think that their book won’t be in print 20 years from now, read by their children’s generation and just as thoroughly enjoyed.
This is not to say that I think all pop culture references should be avoided or that your book won’t resonate with readers because of or in spite of them (hello…JR Ward?) but more that I think they should be used sparingly. Very sparingly. I think there’s definitely an argument for the judicious use of pop culture in contemporaries, but I also encourage authors to find other, more universal ways of describing something.
Since I’m the type of person who doesn’t think anyone should just take my opinion on something, just because I said so, I thought a demonstration would be fun. So I asked four authors, from four different countries, to write a paragraph using pop culture references from their country.
From Australian author Alex Fleming:
“I am so sick of this. Every time you open your mouth you do a Sir Joe on me. I never know where I am with you. I don’t even know if you still care.”
Jason shrugged. “Hey, it’s not like we’re Kylie and Jason. I need some time to myself.” Christ, did she have to bung on a Lady Flo? He let the anger rise to cover his sense of guilt. “Ah, to hell with this. You can stand here whining if you want. Me, I’ve got a Tam Slam with my name on it waiting.”
Imogen Howson, England
I’d been dawdling home, licking the Twiglet stains off my fingers, and didn’t realise the time until I passed an open doorway and heard the Blue Peter theme tune.
I quickened my steps, looked up to cross the road—and stopped.
The girl walking towards me was clearly an ASBO waiting to happen—a Vicky Pollard lookalike in clothes that were more Primark than Topshop. I instantly felt as comfortable as Jade Goody on a visit to Bradford.
But when the girl spoke her accent was pure Home Counties.
“Is there a newsagent’s near here? I need to buy heat—it can’t be true that Peter Andre has left Jordan for Jodie Marsh!”
Canadian author, Lara Rose
He walked in the room and she took a giant gulp of her Timmie’s dark roast, wincing as it burned the tip of her tongue. He was hot, if you liked the whole Red Green beard, Bob and Doug McKenzie wardrobe, and, dear lord, a Joey Jeremiah hat.
Of course, it would be like her obsession with the Great One and end badly, with her singing Alanis and Avril songs while she cowered in the corner of her sleigh bed, her Hudson’s Bay blanket wrapped around her and a 2-4 of Canadian in the fridge. She gathered up her Roots bag and box of timbits, and turned to leave, her Crocs squeaking on the polished floor. He was probably a hoser anyway.
And the US author contribution from Shannon Stacey:
Sara and I had been best friends since the eighth grade. Our hometown, Cedar Falls, was definitely the kind of place where everybody knows your name, and I guess you could say she was the Carla to my Diane. An odd pairing for a friendship, maybe, but it last for years. Right up until we fell in love with the same man.
These are, of course, extreme examples, but just one sentence taken from any of the four paragraphs could potentially stop a reader and make them wonder what the author means.
But, of course, mine is just one opinion. In the thread I referenced earlier, authors came back saying they’d had readers write to them and say they loved a certain pop culture reference. Other authors said they felt the use of a well-placed reference added “flavor” to the writing (which it certainly can, I don’t argue that).
While I was talking to authors about writing on this topic, this comment was made and it wasn’t the first time I’d heard this, “I do think—and maybe it’s American arrogance—that our pop culture seeps out internationally. With internet and satellites and DVD series sets, I think other countries are immersed in our pop culture, whereas we’re not with theirs.” So that may be one reason authors feel comfortable using pop culture references. Because they ultimately believe the majority will get them.
But in the end, I still feel that a well-written description that doesn’t rely on pop culture can draw the reader in just as vividly—and be friendlier to a larger, international market. What do you think?
(as a postscript, due to word count constraints, I couldn’t post translations for the above paragraphs. I did ask the authors to write translations and I’ve posted them on my own blog, in case anyone is curious to read what was meant.)
I got the majority of the pop references from all four paragraphs!
I like pop culture references to illustrate character, in particular (like a book or film obsessed person - love reading about obsessives). I think as long as they’re used in such a way that implies a reading of the meaning, it’s OK.
I also think that trying to iron all pop culture references out of the book can make it feel bland at times, as if it could be set anywhere, or at any time. I kind of like dated references, I have to say, but that’s just the historian in me.
by TansyRR March 20th, 2007 at 6:22 amI try to avoid pop-culture references UNLESS I’m writing a character who speaks in pop-culture references. Then I usually have someone around to translate.
I think the regional accent/idiomatic speech rule applies. Use just enough to cue the reader it’s there, but otherwise write as clearly as you can in standard English.
by Kevin Killiany March 20th, 2007 at 6:33 amI got some of the pop culture references
but for the most part they went right over my head. It’s not safe to assume everyone’s going to get it.
I think authors need to be careful because pop culture references can date your book. In some ways that’s good and other’s not so good. If I read McKenzies and Carla and Diane, my brain goes back to the 80’s and I find myself rolling my eyes. And yet when I reread Salem’s Lot last year Stephen Kings mention of “ape hangers” and “Citron” [sp] brought me right into the time period of the book.
by Tara Marie March 20th, 2007 at 6:36 amI got most of the Canadian ones, but we’re 2 1/2 hours from there, so we get some overlap. The other two…I have absolutely no idea what they’re talking about.
I would put those books down and not pick them up again.
by Shannon Stacey March 20th, 2007 at 8:04 am“Red Green beard, Bob and Doug McKenzie wardrobe, and, dear lord, a Joey Jeremiah hat”—- omg…what a sight that might have been.
I get those were extreme examples but I guess I sort of enjoy it when an authors slips a bit of pop culture into their books. If it sparks my interest, I’ll look up what it is they’re talking about and learn something new, something specific to that area. If it doesn’t, I just read over it and continue on. I think it also depends on the context. If an author follows it up with a hint/suggestion of what it is they’re talking about (I don’t need it totally spelled out) I may not “get” it but down the line something will click and I’ll think back to that book I read with a mention of XYZ in it.
GREAT topic!
by Mandy M. Roth March 20th, 2007 at 8:36 amI try to find universal references as I hate words and references that I don’t get. I read Janet Evanovich and although I like the Stephanie Plum books a lot of the ref’s go over my head. Took me ages to figure out that a ho wasn’t something you dug the garden with.
by Nell Dixon March 20th, 2007 at 8:38 am:grin:I’m used to watching out for this because my stories take place in the future or the past.:wink: I can imagine it’s really tricky for authors of contemporaries though.:eek:
by Kimber An March 20th, 2007 at 8:44 amI’m happy with pop culture references as long as there aren’t too many and as long as there’s some kind of context so I can make a guess at what they are.
by Imogen Howson March 20th, 2007 at 8:54 amJennifer Crusie refers to Dove bars. In the UK, the immediate connection would be a bar of soap, but in the context she gave I very quickly worked out that it was a kind of icecream bar. The same is true for the ‘Timmie’s dark roast’, above.
A lot of the others, however, make me want to scream, ‘Shut up and tell me what you’re talking about!’ Politely, of course.
I treat any reference I don’t understand the same way as I treat a word I don’t understand, I skip it. As long as the novel doesn’t revolve around the reference or word, it doesn’t really matter.
And sometimes it makes the novel seem just a little bit exotic.
Heck, most readers are intellectually curious. We like the idea of learning something new while being entertained.
by Kimber March 20th, 2007 at 9:18 amExcellent points.
by Bernita March 20th, 2007 at 9:19 amOne should not make the reader feel stupid or not-with-it.
Some writers depend on pop-culture references too much and it can end up looking lazy.
A lot of historicals, particularly Regency-set ones, make the equivalent of ‘pop culture’ references, and particularly in trad Regencies it seemed to be expected: Weston’s, Manton’s, Hoby, Gunther’s, Rundell & Bridge’s, Almack’s, Hatchard’s. Given how many of these novels I’ve read, these references make a lot more sense to me than many of the modern pop culture ones do.
As others have said, a lot can be worked out from context. I learned the meanings of the Regency ‘pop culture’ references by reading Georgette Heyer, and I think that if an author is careful to set the brand-name/allusion in context, as Heyer does, or, as Imogen mentioned, Crusie does with Dove bars, then a reader can work them out.
Like Tansy, rather than think of a novel as ‘dated’ I’d tend to think of it as a piece of history. And, as the various quotations show, pop culture references and slang can also give the reader a sense of cultural difference.
by Laura Vivanco March 20th, 2007 at 9:19 amI got some of the non UK references and not others, but I certainly wouldn’t be too put off if I didn’t understand every pop ref in a book. In fact I think I’d be intrigued by the unknown ones, and maybe even driven to find out *more* about the pop culture of the country a book is set in… I love learning new stuff about how people in other countries live and think, and what’s going on around them in their part of the world.
Having said that, the pop culture refs sit much more smoothly in the story when they’re illuminated by context. As other posters have said, if you put too many pop refs in just for the sake if it, to make the thing sound ‘hip’, it can be counter productive.
by WendyPortia March 20th, 2007 at 9:38 am>>Took me ages to figure out that a ho wasn’t something you dug the garden with.
Bwahahaha!
Anyway
I agree a multitude of culture references will obfuscate the description. And don’t forget the age gap, too–I might recognize the Cheers reference but would someone ten years younger than me? I’m 28, an 18 year old would be totally lost. Go back to say, All in the Family and I only know it because I’ve seen Nick at Night.
Of course, on the other hand I tend to use a sprinkling of references, specifically musical ones, to give my characters, well, character. At least now we have google, right?
by Amelia March 20th, 2007 at 10:07 amLOL Nell!
I got almost all of the references from all four cultures (”hoser” HA! And I’m not even Canadian!) But the ones that I got, I either skimmed over or was able to figure out from context. These references usually don’t appear in a vacuum, the way they’re doing here. There are plenty of other clues around them.
I think, unless the whole book is completely submersed in pop references, that one or two phrases is more in the way of set dressing or character bits. Just added spice.
by Sela March 20th, 2007 at 10:19 amI think it depends on how the author handles it. But everthing in the book revolves around how the author handles the subject matter.
by Sara Thacker March 20th, 2007 at 10:29 amI’m from the US, but I totally don’t get the US example. How weird is that? I mostly get the other ones. LOL! I like pop culture references, if done right.
by Kalen Hughes March 20th, 2007 at 11:26 am[...] Check it out… I wrote something up for a post Angela James did over at Romancing the Blog. Once you’ve read that post head on over to Angie’s blog for the rest of the story… [...]
by Le Stylo en Rose » Pimp my blog March 20th, 2007 at 11:40 amWell I got a good portion of them but I’ve been to Australia several times and I have some British friends. However, I’m Canadian and I have no idea what a joey Jeremiah hat is! Is that an Eastern Canadian reference? Even amongst our own countries there are regional pop culture references that sometimes make things hard. I know that I’ve sometimes read some things from the Maritimes and have no clue what they are talking about.
However, for the most part I enjoy a small amount of pop culture reference. I found the US post to be a minimal amount that worked just right to set me in the Cheers bar atmosphere.
by Michelle March 20th, 2007 at 12:10 pmI think pop culture references are kind of like everything else in writing. It should be there if (and only if) it either adds to the overall story, or tells me something about the characters.
If the heroine is an introvert that stays home on friday nights and watches reruns then a few references to old TV shows wouldn’t bother me.
Or if a character wears Manolo Blahniks instead of a cheap brand, that says something about the character.
by Emma Sinclair March 20th, 2007 at 1:20 pmI have a difficult time understanding pop culture references, because I don’t pay much attention to it. For instance, I’ve never seen “Buffy” and so haven’t a clue when there are references (and there are so many!) to this show. I never watched “Sex in the City”. Never wanted to. I wouldn’t know a Manolo Blahnik if it hit me right between the eyes.
So, do I include them? Pretty much never. Even the music my characters listen to is typically classic stuff.
by Marianne March 20th, 2007 at 1:53 pmI’m playing Devil’s Advocate here: I kind of like pop culture references when I get them, and I kind of ignore them when I don’t. Yes, a PCR can date a book, but it can also make it timely. We’re immersed in pop culture, why shouldn’t our characters be also?
by Bernadette Gardner March 20th, 2007 at 3:28 pmI finished reading a story which made a lot many pop cultural references. I thought them funny, but then it got me thinking if 10 years from now others will find it as funny as I did. Maybe I’ll make enemies for saying this, but pop cultural references make a book sound dated. Sometimes that’s good because it gives you an idea of what’s happening in the society at that time. But sometimes that same feature makes the book forgettable.
by Tempest Knight March 20th, 2007 at 3:47 pmIn a way, they can stand in as pinpoints in history. Think of people reading them in 100 years and what they will learn about pop culture in the early 2K’s. Sometimes things like that seem dated when you read them 10-20 years after they’ve been written, but I think it takes longer than that for them to season.
Just a thought.
by Eva Gale March 20th, 2007 at 4:04 pmIs it a bad sign that I understood all of those? I think I watch too much tv lol
by Maria Duncan March 20th, 2007 at 4:26 pmI use it in my contemporaries, because that’s the way my friends and I communicate. I don’t use them all the time, but maybe once or twice in a book. I have to say I was concerned when my critique partner didn’t know that a padawan was a Star Wars reference. How could someone not get a Star Wars reference? I think using references in pop culture can enrich the story and make it more believable since it is what surrounds us, embues us and molds who we are as a society. I watch a lot of British television and have even began to understand their pop culture references. Plus with the internet I think we might start seeing a lot of cross-culture references. It will be something to watch for in the future anyhow. The thing I think dates a book more than anything is the electronic devices the characters use. - I wrote a book about 13 years ago, and never sold it. When I rewrote it, I started at page one, chapter one and began again. When I had originally written it, most people used pay phones if making a call when they were out and about, as not many people carried their own cell phones. Now, even school kids have their own cell phones. Big change in society, small window of time.
Great food for thought, Angela.
-Kat
by Kat Mancos March 20th, 2007 at 4:27 pmI’d never given pop culture much thought until I read this. After doing so, I think I’d have to say that I do think it has a place, just not too much. I know I could overlook one or two references, but more than that might have me putting down the book.
by Michelle Cary March 20th, 2007 at 6:29 pmYeesh, I only got the Red Green reference. But then, I don’t watch tv, and only get to one film a year.
I prefer very few pop references in my reading. I usually skip them, but if they really date the book and are plentiful I might discard the book and pick something else to read.
by Nancy Gee March 20th, 2007 at 8:05 pmI got the UK references but the others went over my head. *G* Too much BBC for me and gossip blogs for me :lol::lol::lol:
I don’t mind pop culture references–especially when delivered in that sharp-edged British wit–but I do mind culture references (Ward…natch lol).
by Camilla March 20th, 2007 at 8:23 pmI think using pop culture references - or too many of them - can be a two-edged sword. You risk alienating the reader for more than one reason.
Compare your hero to a certain celebrity and you give an immediate visual, that’s true…but what if your reader finds that celebrity childish or arrogant or just plain ugly?
Compare your hero to a certain celebrity, and don’t give a generic physical description, and what if the reader doesn’t know who that celeb is? (I for one have never watched Buffy, or Stargate, or Xena…)
Compare your hero to a certain celebrity, and then that celebrity manages to do something heinous (like beat his wife or dangle his child over the edge of a balcony), and does your hero suffer from the comparison?
I personally think most pop culture references are just laziness on the writer’s part.
by Miki March 20th, 2007 at 10:29 pmGreat topic, Angie. I loved the examples!
I try really hard not to use pop culture references for two reasons: I don’t want to date my book and because I have quite a few readers outside of the US. I’m always amazed and humbled when I get emails from international readers saying how much they enjoyed my stories and characters. I want to make sure I write a story that translates to as broad an audience as possible.
by Patrice Michelle March 20th, 2007 at 11:45 pmIt’s really funny to read a character who uses a lot of TV references when the character is portrayed as too busy to watch it.
by Bernita March 21st, 2007 at 12:39 pmI don’t know if this topic is still open, but I just wanted to add a little cultural perspective on the “timeless” vs. “dated” question of a book.
Aren’t romance novels themselves products of our popular culture? To my knowledge, they don’t exist in very many other countries in the world, and although I think every author would like to hope maybe their book will stand the test of time and be valuable to future readers because of some of it’s profound universal themes (and I’m sure readers would like that for their favourite books and author’s too), is it really that bad if a book becomes “dated”?
I think part of what’s interesting about a lot of fictional genres nowadays is their transience. I’m not suggesting that romance novels won’t exist in the future, but I imagine they will take on many new shapes, forms, and voices. It can be alienating and irritating to be bombarded with pop culture references from other media that don’t really apply to a wide audience, or that just detract from the story and characters, but hey, using new forms of slang or language variations, and talking about new technology makes the book a valuable reflection of what our culture is RIGHT NOW. It’s a reflection of what we value in the present and what kinds of current social norms we may be criticizing or praising.
I think it’s fantastic that romance novels as cultural products are creating a community of readers and writers who can communicate with each other about certain trends, and in some cases, help work toward social change and greater tolerance.
Gooooo, romance novels!
by Lleeo March 21st, 2007 at 5:50 pmI’m a little late to this, but the pop culture references can wear on my patience. I love JR Ward’s books. However, the pop culture references are getting a little thin. I also find myself questioning some of the way slang is used in those. She used terms in ways that I’ve never heard before and I’m young enough to still hear a lot of slang. Using these sort of references leaves the author open to the possibility of getting them wrong. That puts me off more than anything.
I don’t think dating the book is really the issue, particularly in romance. Romance novels are published so fast and in such large quantity that individual novels don’t seem to endure as long as other genres anyway. Further, Stephen King is notorious for pop culture references and his novels seem to be hanging on, even though some of them were written in the 70s. I find that pop culture references are becoming increasingly a sign of laziness, something to be used instead of more universal discriptions.
by Jess March 22nd, 2007 at 12:06 am