Comments on: Breaching the Squick Barrier http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/2005/12/13/breaching-the-squick-border/ What's hip, what's now, what's tomorrow in the romance genre world. Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:26:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Diana Hunter http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/2005/12/13/breaching-the-squick-border/comment-page-1/#comment-7394 Diana Hunter Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:34:09 +0000 http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/?p=477#comment-7394 This is a great conversation for an author to fall into! As a writer of some of those BDSM stories some readers find "icky," I'm fascinated by what turns readers off...and what they don't mind. I have to agree the line between "rape" and RAPE is often blurred in traditional romances. Just as the line between "consensual" and "non-consensual" has been blurred in too many BDSM novels, both those with HEAs and those without. It's a line I traverse every time I sit down to write, trying not to fall off on the wrong side. Do I have any personal "squicks?" Only bad grammar... and I find it in far too many books. Nothing pulls me out of a story faster than a misused word or poorly written sentence, no matter WHAT the genre. Give me tight sentences (and heros with tight rear ends!) every time. Thanks for letting me listen in... Diana This is a great conversation for an author to fall into! As a writer of some of those BDSM stories some readers find “icky,” I’m fascinated by what turns readers off…and what they don’t mind.

I have to agree the line between “rape” and RAPE is often blurred in traditional romances. Just as the line between “consensual” and “non-consensual” has been blurred in too many BDSM novels, both those with HEAs and those without. It’s a line I traverse every time I sit down to write, trying not to fall off on the wrong side.

Do I have any personal “squicks?” Only bad grammar… and I find it in far too many books. Nothing pulls me out of a story faster than a misused word or poorly written sentence, no matter WHAT the genre. Give me tight sentences (and heros with tight rear ends!) every time.

Thanks for letting me listen in…
Diana

]]> By: Cynthia R. Reese http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/2005/12/13/breaching-the-squick-border/comment-page-1/#comment-7389 Cynthia R. Reese Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:18:20 +0000 http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/?p=477#comment-7389 You guys have already mentioned my two biggest squicks ... non-consensual sex and Complete Jerks who masquerade as socially acceptable Alpha Males (and aren't they usually the Boss, which is another squick factor for me ... some of these "heros" out in real life would be defendants in sexual harrassment law suits! Other than that, I guess my "ick" factor would have to be a common thing in many category romances (at least in the past), and quite a few historical romances: the size difference between the hero and the heroine ... classic cliche is that the woman is "small" and "fine-boned" and "looks like a woman-child" when the big mountain of a man hero first meets her. I just can't help but think of me (I'm 4'10", the size of a skinny 12-year-old)and how guys in the past have had to really struggle to see me as an adult woman. Most of the very few men in my life (I've been happily married for 15 years, and found Mr. Right after a short search of Mr. Nice-but-Not-Rights) admitted that they feel a little like a child molester for being attracted to a petite woman. So when I see a romance hero start out by admiring a woman's petiteness and feeling attracted by that very quality, I think of the hesitance of the guys I knew, and wonder if Mr. Hero is sublimating pedophilic urges. Yech. Not to mention, ahem, the mechanics of the deal. Trust me. Slot A needs to line up with Tab B or nobody has any fun! :oops: You guys have already mentioned my two biggest squicks … non-consensual sex and Complete Jerks who masquerade as socially acceptable Alpha Males (and aren’t they usually the Boss, which is another squick factor for me … some of these “heros” out in real life would be defendants in sexual harrassment law suits!

Other than that, I guess my “ick” factor would have to be a common thing in many category romances (at least in the past), and quite a few historical romances: the size difference between the hero and the heroine … classic cliche is that the woman is “small” and “fine-boned” and “looks like a woman-child” when the big mountain of a man hero first meets her.

I just can’t help but think of me (I’m 4′10″, the size of a skinny 12-year-old)and how guys in the past have had to really struggle to see me as an adult woman. Most of the very few men in my life (I’ve been happily married for 15 years, and found Mr. Right after a short search of Mr. Nice-but-Not-Rights) admitted that they feel a little like a child molester for being attracted to a petite woman.

So when I see a romance hero start out by admiring a woman’s petiteness and feeling attracted by that very quality, I think of the hesitance of the guys I knew, and wonder if Mr. Hero is sublimating pedophilic urges. Yech.

Not to mention, ahem, the mechanics of the deal. Trust me. Slot A needs to line up with Tab B or nobody has any fun! :oops:

]]> By: Eddie Adair http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/2005/12/13/breaching-the-squick-border/comment-page-1/#comment-7388 Eddie Adair Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:10:34 +0000 http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/?p=477#comment-7388 Aside from the tremendous liberties one can take in paranormals, such as different moral customs on different planets (perhaps a marriage is solidified by a night in which many men pleasure the heroine as the hero looks on), anthropomorphic sex, and special body types that enhance the experience, the existence of bonding rituals and a true mate is a very convenient device found in many, if not most of these stories. So while a vampire hero and the mortal heroine whom he converts are now stuck together in eternity, we are usually reassured by the fact that they will never be dissatisfied because they were intended for each other by the fates or because they have mated and are now inseparable. And I think that this device works very well. We're reading romance, so we need the HEA. What better way to ensure that this happens than by sealing the hero and heroine (or two heroes, or two heroes and one heroine, etc.) in an unbreakable union? Immortality might be a scary concept, but if one is guaranteed to have an everlasting love connection, it starts to look pretty good. Aside from the tremendous liberties one can take in paranormals, such as different moral customs on different planets (perhaps a marriage is solidified by a night in which many men pleasure the heroine as the hero looks on), anthropomorphic sex, and special body types that enhance the experience, the existence of bonding rituals and a true mate is a very convenient device found in many, if not most of these stories. So while a vampire hero and the mortal heroine whom he converts are now stuck together in eternity, we are usually reassured by the fact that they will never be dissatisfied because they were intended for each other by the fates or because they have mated and are now inseparable. And I think that this device works very well. We’re reading romance, so we need the HEA. What better way to ensure that this happens than by sealing the hero and heroine (or two heroes, or two heroes and one heroine, etc.) in an unbreakable union? Immortality might be a scary concept, but if one is guaranteed to have an everlasting love connection, it starts to look pretty good.

]]> By: sk http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/2005/12/13/breaching-the-squick-border/comment-page-1/#comment-7386 sk Wed, 14 Dec 2005 07:41:12 +0000 http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/?p=477#comment-7386 It's all about the metaphor. Shape changer stories - "Beauty and the Beast" - are metaphors for the "beast with two backs" where the animal nature represents sexuality. Similarly, vampire romances can be seen as a metaphor for the "little death" of orgasm or the scary sacrifices that come with lifelong comitment (what if it were forever, and you'd never be the same?). As long as the author keeps even a taste of the metaphor in the story, I'm good. But by themselves, corpsef*cking and beastiality are just gross. Also, anything - real or fictional - that involves a lack of consent is a no-go. And, for the record, I think actual polyamory is borrowing trouble. Fictional polyamory is at least one too many names for me to have to remember while I'm reading a love scene. It’s all about the metaphor. Shape changer stories – “Beauty and the Beast” – are metaphors for the “beast with two backs” where the animal nature represents sexuality. Similarly, vampire romances can be seen as a metaphor for the “little death” of orgasm or the scary sacrifices that come with lifelong comitment (what if it were forever, and you’d never be the same?).

As long as the author keeps even a taste of the metaphor in the story, I’m good. But by themselves, corpsef*cking and beastiality are just gross. Also, anything – real or fictional – that involves a lack of consent is a no-go.

And, for the record, I think actual polyamory is borrowing trouble. Fictional polyamory is at least one too many names for me to have to remember while I’m reading a love scene.

]]> By: Desertwillow http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/2005/12/13/breaching-the-squick-border/comment-page-1/#comment-7385 Desertwillow Wed, 14 Dec 2005 07:18:35 +0000 http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/?p=477#comment-7385 My personal squicks aren't to different - pedophilia, incest, rape. In paranormal I'm pretty open to vampire sex, even werewolf sex, (I read Tiger Eye and I was fine with the one scene mentioned above), BDSM. I read the MJDavidson werewolf story with the alpha wolf rape scene in it and was seriously turned off. Forced sex isn't acceptable in my fiction. And LKH's sex scenes are too creepy. Overall, I think it's up to the writer to bring me into the scene and convince me that their story whether it involves poly- or mono- lifetstyles can lead to a HEA. My personal squicks aren’t to different – pedophilia, incest, rape. In paranormal I’m pretty open to vampire sex, even werewolf sex, (I read Tiger Eye and I was fine with the one scene mentioned above), BDSM. I read the MJDavidson werewolf story with the alpha wolf rape scene in it and was seriously turned off. Forced sex isn’t acceptable in my fiction. And LKH’s sex scenes are too creepy. Overall, I think it’s up to the writer to bring me into the scene and convince me that their story whether it involves poly- or mono- lifetstyles can lead to a HEA.

]]> By: Reese Witherfork http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/2005/12/13/breaching-the-squick-border/comment-page-1/#comment-7383 Reese Witherfork Wed, 14 Dec 2005 04:09:31 +0000 http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/?p=477#comment-7383 I think a lot of erotic writing comes from a fairly literary tradition - one which seeks to not only arouse, but to push the reader into new insights, etc. When you merge that with the Romance tradition, which is fueled by the need for comfort, reassurance, satisfying endings - I think you may run into some problems. Forgive me if the above statement appears to undermine Romance writing. I'm not anti-romance at all. I think a lot of erotic writing comes from a fairly literary tradition – one which seeks to not only arouse, but to push the reader into new insights, etc.

When you merge that with the Romance tradition, which is fueled by the need for comfort, reassurance, satisfying endings – I think you may run into some problems.

Forgive me if the above statement appears to undermine Romance writing. I’m not anti-romance at all.

]]> By: Camy Tang http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/2005/12/13/breaching-the-squick-border/comment-page-1/#comment-7382 Camy Tang Wed, 14 Dec 2005 03:58:56 +0000 http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/?p=477#comment-7382 Great post. Good questions you bring up. They were making me laugh because they're a bit tongue in cheek. Some of the more off-the wall examples in the comments are making ME squeal. Esp Shannon's with the metal bar piercings. :shock: Butt sex really turns me off mostly because I get certain infections pretty easily, and I'm a biologist, so I'm screaming BACTERIA!!!! camy Great post. Good questions you bring up. They were making me laugh because they’re a bit tongue in cheek.

Some of the more off-the wall examples in the comments are making ME squeal. Esp Shannon’s with the metal bar piercings. :shock:

Butt sex really turns me off mostly because I get certain infections pretty easily, and I’m a biologist, so I’m screaming BACTERIA!!!!

camy

]]> By: Jorie http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/2005/12/13/breaching-the-squick-border/comment-page-1/#comment-7380 Jorie Wed, 14 Dec 2005 02:12:22 +0000 http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/?p=477#comment-7380 Hi Candy, interesting post. Some scattered thoughts: While there are a lot of vampires and shapeshifters around, I don't think they end up being that different from normal humans in most romances. So while they are technically dead or alien or whatever, it just doesn't feel that way. As for rape and forced seduction in romance. The former is definitely part of romance's history (and there have been many discussions about why that is so), but I don't think it's really being published in romance these days. At least, I haven't found it. As for the Tines in Vinge's <i>A Fire Upon the Deep</i>--I adored those aliens. Hi Candy, interesting post. Some scattered thoughts:

While there are a lot of vampires and shapeshifters around, I don’t think they end up being that different from normal humans in most romances. So while they are technically dead or alien or whatever, it just doesn’t feel that way.

As for rape and forced seduction in romance. The former is definitely part of romance’s history (and there have been many discussions about why that is so), but I don’t think it’s really being published in romance these days. At least, I haven’t found it.

As for the Tines in Vinge’s A Fire Upon the Deep–I adored those aliens.

]]> By: Roseread http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/2005/12/13/breaching-the-squick-border/comment-page-1/#comment-7379 Roseread Wed, 14 Dec 2005 02:01:10 +0000 http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/?p=477#comment-7379 HEA is definitely possible in hardcore BDSM relationships. Trust me. I've got direct personal experience. And I've read some wonderful HEAs in menage novels as well. Squick? I'm obviously a little different so far from most of the commenters. But nonconsensuality in any form still squicks me--so the basics of pedophilia, bestiality, rape, and true necrophilia, rather than vampirephilia. BDSM is about consensuality, so it doesn't count. Blood is sexy when done right. As is heavy pain, if it's what you like. ;) YMMV, obviously. -Roseread HEA is definitely possible in hardcore BDSM relationships. Trust me. I’ve got direct personal experience.

And I’ve read some wonderful HEAs in menage novels as well.

Squick? I’m obviously a little different so far from most of the commenters. But nonconsensuality in any form still squicks me–so the basics of pedophilia, bestiality, rape, and true necrophilia, rather than vampirephilia. BDSM is about consensuality, so it doesn’t count.

Blood is sexy when done right. As is heavy pain, if it’s what you like. ;)

YMMV, obviously.

-Roseread

]]> By: Jill http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/2005/12/13/breaching-the-squick-border/comment-page-1/#comment-7377 Jill Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:43:03 +0000 http://www.romancingtheblog.com/blog/?p=477#comment-7377 Hmmm, interesting topic. Possible spoiler for Hotel New Hampshire by John Irving! I have to say squick is one of those things "I know it when I see it." Sometimes it just a matter of how the author handles a story. Incest, for example, generally gives me the heebie jeebies in a curl up in a ball and fee physically ill way, but I read "Hotel New Hampshire", by John Irving and loved it. It helped that when I picked it up I did not know that incest was a part of the story. It also is not a romance. I was just reading my first erotic romance with "menage elements" the other day and I put it down once they were getting to the "big scene". Partially b/c the idea itself did not interest me and partially b/c the characters and conflict were rather pedestrian. If it had better written, I might have gone for it. That being said, I do agree with the statements that I find it hard to buy into a HEA for menage groups. I think it can be done (both in real life and in fiction), but in both cases it is very hard to pull off well. Hmmm, interesting topic.
Possible spoiler for Hotel New Hampshire by John Irving!

I have to say squick is one of those things “I know it when I see it.” Sometimes it just a matter of how the author handles a story. Incest, for example, generally gives me the heebie jeebies in a curl up in a ball and fee physically ill way, but I read “Hotel New Hampshire”, by John Irving and loved it. It helped that when I picked it up I did not know that incest was a part of the story. It also is not a romance.

I was just reading my first erotic romance with “menage elements” the other day and I put it down once they were getting to the “big scene”. Partially b/c the idea itself did not interest me and partially b/c the characters and conflict were rather pedestrian. If it had better written, I might have gone for it.

That being said, I do agree with the statements that I find it hard to buy into a HEA for menage groups. I think it can be done (both in real life and in fiction), but in both cases it is very hard to pull off well.

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