by Laurie Gold, originally posted 05/20/05
Last month at AAR I bemoaned the lack of assertive female participation in many a romance novel love scene, where all too typically, the heroine takes a passive role in lovemaking. That said, two weeks later, during an interview with Anne Stuart on Heroes on the Edge (the hero from her new book, Black Ice, defines this type of hero better than just about any other hero I’ve ever read), we touched on the topic of "forced seduction" of the heroine by the hero. When discussion moved to the ATBF Message Board, I mentioned that at times I find this type of scene very erotic.
Let me be entirely clear: there is no such thing as forced seduction in real life (and "no" always means "no"), yet the forced seduction/rape fantasy does exist, and for a variety of reasons. But judging by the activity on that message board as a result of that column and previous articles on the topic at AAR, either you understand the erotic power of such a scene or you don’t, and if you don’t, you also cannot fathom how any modern woman could possibly find such a scene sexy. And further, just as romance readers often feel we must defend their choice of reading material, those of us who’ve enjoyed a scene of forced seduction at least once found ourselves defending that – and didn’t like it.
I am horrified by rape scenes in books. On the other hand there have been occasional books featuring scenes of forced seduction that I found erotic in the extreme. It may harken back to the Zipless F_ck (the shocking and erotic first sex scene in Black Ice is one Stuart seems to catagorize as a variant of the ZF in our discussion), the fantasy of today’s "Superwoman" totally giving up control to another person and making them responsible for our pleasure, or some hardwiring that draws women to the most conquering of males. Regardless, I don’t have a problem separating the reality of the brutal rage behind rape from the fantasy triggered by certain forced seduction scenes. Stash a couple of silk ties in your bedside table and see what I mean.
One of our male readers confessed his total lack of understanding that reading of a man forcing seduction upon a woman could be erotic – my response was that, perhaps he can’t because he’s a man. After all, I don’t find sexy two women (or two men, for that matter) making love, and for men this is supposedly quite a turn on.
A bigger discussion point turned on the idea that it’s always a question of sexual politics. I came of age after the sexual revolution, in an age when women were not expected to be virgins (or to give "benefits" to friends). Sex was about giving love and getting love, and I think had a playfulness previously lacking. I concede that there is a cultural angle, but it’s more rooted in what Carl Jung believed to be the Collective Unconsciousness. That may seem to be simply a "tomato/tomahto" splitting of hairs, but I think not.
Among other arguments made was this one: If romances contain such scenes, than both men and women will be confused about real life boundaries. Doesn’t that infantalize women in the name of protecting us as potential victims? And unless a 21st century man is raised in the Taliban (in which case he’s not reading romance anyway) and/or has absolutely no contact with women other than as subserviant beings, I don’t buy it.
And then, of course, there was the "outsiders" debate, which goes something like this: "Don’t these scenes make it more difficult for romance to be taken seriously by ‘outsiders’?" Even though romance is a cash cow, because it’s written by women for women, suffers from the convention of the HEA ending (a literary horror of horrors), and is all about emotions, it’ll never be taken seriously. But – and this is more to the point – who cares if outsiders "get" it, particularly given how many people read romance? If you like it, who really cares if the person down the street likes it? Although, chances are, they do, or their best friend or sister does, so maybe now’s the time to knock that chip off our shoulders for good.
There’s a whole world of romance options out there. What you like needn’t be something I like, and vice versa. But the idea that any fictional premise is one we ought not be reading because it might damage us or others is something I don’t understand. It takes a certain amount of intelligence to be literate, and it doesn’t take a boatload of intelligence for an adult to separate fiction from reality.
TTFN, Laurie Likes Books
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But it does take a boatload of intelligence for a guy in college to realize that his girlfriend’s interest in literary forced seduction scenes does not translate to any sort of real-time wish . . .
Hmm. That could have been clearer. My GF (now my wife) liked pirate forced-seductions. I tried to be a bit pushier next time around, but I guess without the eyepatch and stump, she wasn’t buying it.
This is an odd thing, isn’t it? It’s as though there are two separate neural pathways for arousal. (Or more.)
BTW girl-on-girl never did it for me. Boring. The wife makes me fast forward through those bits, anyway. Best,
Doug
I agree totally. I guess I’m one of those women who ‘gets’ those types of scenes. I’m also the type who doesn’t want her hero asking about my ‘feelings’.. I want a man to be a man.
When it comes to forced seduction, I think that personally for me it comes down to wanting to read about an agressive man – because that’s the type of man I like in real life.
Now as to defending my choice of reading material? I don’t.
I don’t understand the need for romance writers (or chick lit writers, or horror writers, or erotica writers, or literature writers) to defend their genre. If someone doesn’t want to read it, they don’t have to buy it. (Instead they’ll probably become critics of it.)
Romance gets trashed from all sides for all kinds of things, not just for its depiction of lovemaking/sex/forced seduction/whatever the scene is about. Look at what any group is chastising romance for, and you’ll see what they’re afraid of.
The romance novel is a vital place for women to collectively work out what’s important to them, whether what’s important is socially acceptable or not. As we change, our novels, heroines, and focus also change.
I, for one, can’t wait to see what’s coming next!
I think the basic difference between forced seduction and rape is obvious. Forced seduction is about pleasure for the “forcee,” who isn’t REALLY being forced because they’re not REALLY trying to stop it; rape is about power to the person doing the raping. There’s simply no comparison.
Even though forced seduction doesn’t appeal to me at all, it doesn’t bother me that other people enjoy it. I just want to know in advance if it’s in a particular book, because it’s a big turnoff for me. (I’d like it to be mentioned in reviews, even if it’s a “spoiler”.)
But what has annoyed me is that for many years, erotica was almost entirely centered around forced seduction scenarios. I tried some of the Black Lace books and other erotica titles, and with a few exceptions, all of them had forced seduction as a major focus. I think erotica has finally come around and is including different scenarios, but it’s still hard to find erotica that doesn’t include it. I think sex can be hot without the domineering man, forced seduction scenario.
Karen
The thing about forced seduction and rape fantasies,as Nancy Friday pointed out, is that the woman gets to give up all guilt/shame concerning whatever is being done TO her, leaving her to feel nothing but the pleasure.
And yes, I think the FANTASY is good in real life in the proper context. I t hink it’s perfectly acceptable for a consenting woman to ALLOW her partner to tie her to the bed and ravish away. But, obviously the same senairo with a stranger would not have the same effect.
Comment to an earlier comment from Heather who likes an agressive man. Me, too, and that’s why forced seduction leaves me cold – because I can’t help but think only a man who is actually insecure about his maleness will display his toughness by forcing a woman into sex. IMHO. There is agressive, and there is agressive. The difference exists between a scared boy trying to act tough (and trying to put others down because it will let him pretend he’s the strongest), and a leader’s agression, which is based in confidence.
And why would a truly confident man need to force a woman into sex? If he’s a real man, he can have a bunch of willing ones.
Or maybe I just don’t get the guilt/shame thing. What’s guilty and shameful about having sex? Even with a stranger